You get my vote, thanks for your work...
btw, I cannot find your proposal at PEAKD proposals...

Yeah, it wasn't posting this morning. Still trying to figure out why it won't go live.

I will wait then :-(

it's live now

Voted.

Whats the ETA for everything being made? If we fund this, we should get information on that. Also why not split this into multiple smaller ones? I'd support p2p development but don't care for the rest without that.

It's actually a really good idea. Dividing up the developments and ETAs into multiple proposals. 👍

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No it's not an idea, it's a reaction to what happened to netuso who was awarded a proposal for doing random unchecked work for hive. If they're awarded this proposal then I would strongly suggest they make earnings from exchange fees burn hive. Otherwise it's pure profit for them they were already paid to build something and now get all the rewards. Most people who start a business have to invest then earn profit. Not get free money and then keep all the profit. Pretty sweet deal thou. Anyone who votes for this is contributing to the lack of accountability in the proposal system. Way to go!

Voted!

Great to see this proposal! I'm wondering why @blocktrades mentioned P2P isn't needed for decentralization. Has there been any communication with him to find out his thoughts on how the 2nd layer can be decentralized?

We'll be putting forward our proposal for a different 2nd layer smart contract system in another week or two. Our plan is to do an airdrop on Hive stakeholders for the cpu gas token for our smart contract system.

One of the great things about doing smart contracts on the 2nd layer is that Hive will be able to offer multiple competing platforms. For funding purposes via DAO, however, I think there should be a good explanation of how the system is going to help the price of Hive relative to the amount of funds requested.

There's no real need for another p2p system, because 2nd layer apps can piggyback off the existing one. A separate one could be setup to isolate traffic to only apps that need/want the data, of course.

In any case, the best way to do this would be to leverage the existing p2p technology we developed already, instead of creating a new one (creating a good p2p network is a hard problem). As part of our proposal, we'll also take a look at methods for making the p2p code available to various 2nd layer apps that do want their own communication network.

Interesting. Well, do you think everyone would win more and bigger if at this early stage all efforts and expertise are combined into one really good solution? And that competition among 2nd-layer platforms can come at a later stage when there is a larger userbase? Instead of creating ultra-niche competing platforms that have very few users.

It's hard to say what the best solution is yet. From my point of view, this proposal is a bit premature. We plan a thorough review of the existing smart contract engines out there, then to focus on the one that looks best, in terms of security, scalability, ease-of-use, etc.

• Benefits- This is in the proposal, but basically Hive needs more people holding $Hive. After 4 years of trying it seems unlikely to come from blogging rewards anymore, and will come from new apps and communities. They need off the shelf contracts that they can use and a system they can trust. If a no-code, modular, smart contract platform can't bring people here I don't know what will, and people are the only thing I think will ultimately impact price.

If you want more people and a better price for Hive kindly vote this proposal. It's a pretty small amount of money for such a large team and open source development so I think it would be hard for Hive not to get a large bang for the buck.

• P2P - Well, I thought the same thing about the P2P system myself, but then I experienced the concern and backlash from the community and I was willing to investigate. We did one attempt and it faltered, so trying again. Maybe your audience will be different.

• "Smart Engine" - I heard the news about your "Smart Engine" project in the developer meeting. From what I understood it's nearly the exact opposite of what I'm trying to build with Hive-Engine. But you're building it on the layer 2 rather than the layer 1 so I'm excited to see what comes of it.

I think the gas concept is neat. Hopefully that gets traction. It seems to help price but hinder development and use case. Again, it's in the layer 2 so many blessings of swift success.

Good afternoon, Aggroed. Good luck with your proposal.

> After 4 years of trying it seems unlikely to come from blogging rewards anymore, and will come from new apps and communities.

I'm not sure if the word 'trying' is accurate. You see, content is a product. Our general onboarding attempts are often if not always targeted towards attracting new potential creators with a subtle promise of being paid. So we've been filling our shelves with this product for years, then refusing to open our doors and sell it to the consumer. Consistently cramming the stage full of performers, then ignoring the fact the seats are empty. I've not seen any attempts to attract consumers over the years, even though we offer them the best deal in entertainment this world has to offer.

I do recall a time when potential consumers were quite literally being paid to look away, during the whole paid vote/bidbot era. A content creator back then stood no chance of growing a consumer base because being paid to not consume or look away was advertised to be far more appealing. So let's subtract those years from the four years of "trying".

Many tribes followed the same path. Open the floodgates to creators, create perks that would appeal to the crypto crowd, create amazing consumer perks, then completely ignore the consumer's role. Without those consumers, how are the tribes doing?

The missing element or key ingredient is the consumer, when you're offering a product. Let's just pretend for a moment I'm a professional here. If you ask me what I need in order to succeed, I will tell you I need consumers. If you ask me what I'm lacking here, I will say consumers.

You can't even watch a livestream these days without the host stopping every few minutes to thank consumers for their donations. That steady stream of money pours in daily and it's not exclusive to video content. Consumers are donating or tipping all over the internet. The platforms often take a huge cut. The entire time consumers and creators were getting ripped off by those platforms, Hive sat here offering them a far better deal, and kept it a secret.

The content creators did not fail this platform. Blaming the blogger has seemingly become so incredibly fashionable as of late. So now not only is the massive market of consumer potential being ignored, but a wide swath of the existing and dwindling userbase is also being pushed away further.

I wish to see this place succeed and nothing else. I do not see any problems with creating more apps and communities. I just hope people can learn the importance of placing butts in the seats.

It's crazy how one line can trigger so many thoughts. Just know I mean well.

I agree, many of these second layer projects are getting more crypto agnostic by the day and nothing is stopping an HPS proposal from benefiting without really giving back concrete value.

Let's not advertise until we have a finished product, until, until, until. Actually, Hive as it is, is worth adverising 4X more than it currently is at least. Worth reaching a consensus over, in what our brand really is and stop talking about which technical aspect needs work. I think reaching a marketing consensus is the can of worms witnesses postpone opening and herein lies the advantage of a centralized corporation over a decentralized social media platform.

I agree that blaming the blogger has gone on for long enough, blogging may not be the way of the future for Hive but it still is the way of the present and explains the rebirth of Hive from its own ashes. A dedicated community of social participants decided to believe in this new iteration. We should be thankful and profusely validate the human aspect that is so desperately lacking on other blockchains and how less technical people actually live here.

Well said. It sort of drives me crazy when I hear the line "we've tried this for years and it hasn't worked". To be blunt, we haven't tried shit. People have fiddled with the knobs that hardly effect the end user for years while totally ignoring all the interfaces that people actually interact with or putting any energy into making the applications usable or useful for a potential creator or consumer. The behavior of the users is based on the design of the applications.

Content disappears after 7 days and can't be found in search or discovered organically in any dependable way = it's a waste of time to create good content. Whether you're after rewards or organic engagement, the applications offer you neither and no tools to succeed except to post more. Which is exactly what people do.

To be able to claim we'd tried a lot of the social front we'd need to have dramatically changed to UX over the years based on observed behavior from the users. None of that is happening and IMO the strongest feature of HIVE has become the scapegoat of the failures in other areas.

I've been trying to wrap my head around, everything, lately. I've been somewhat good at seeing where things are headed before they get there, over the past four years of attempting to build a business here. Jotted down a few thoughts here in the entire thread:

https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@nonameslefttouse/re-mindtrap-qjanwz

Building communities is great. Building ghost towns, not so much.

Consider looking into short-form content too @nonameslefttouse.

-> https://d.buzz

We'd love to receive direct constructive criticism from you about our platform.

Social media services like Twitter and Facebook are most often used by the consumer class to help distribute content found on content production platforms like Youtube or online magazine style sites, etc.

A blog post isn't social media. A video isn't social media. A short word and a link to a blog post is social media.

Short form content and social media are two different things. A quick ten second video is not created on Facebook or Twitter, it's shared there; passed around to consumers so more people can see.

Monetizing a tweet and calling that content seems kind of strange to me. That's like paying for advertisements, promos, flyers, etc.

Typically consumers outnumber creators by a huge margin. Creators benefit when consumers use a service to distribute the creator's content free of charge. Maybe now they can earn a few cents for it. It would be incredibly awkward though if distributing content paid more than creating it.

Also, far too often on Twitter I see lengthy thoughts shared in a series of Tweets. When someone has a lot to say, Twitter fails them. They'd be better off having access to a place where they can speak their entire mind in one go without interruption. I would have been incredibly annoyed if I had to break down this response into several responses due to the limitations of the software I use.

So your service does have a place in this world. If I had a UI that organizes and separates my social media from my content creation, I'd probably use your service a lot more. But right now my d.buzz would blend and get mixed in with my content and make my blog look messy, so I prefer not to use it.

If there were two separate feeds, I'd probably use it to announce new content or share what we call reblogs to my following here. I'd use it to quickly scroll through what those I follow are sharing. That feed would need to be in it's own little space that's always accessible, even as I type these words here in this box. Or as I'm creating a post, I should be able to easily scroll through the d.buzz feed without having to leave the editor. I think d.buzz would work great as a social media app built right in to something like PeakD, instead of posing as a content creation platform of its own.

spot on @aggroed

>...but basically Hive needs more people holding $Hive. After 4 years of trying it seems unlikely to come from blogging rewards anymore, and will come from new apps and communities.

What do you think about it coming from short-form content? @uwelang

-> https://d.buzz

P.S. We'd love to receive direct constructive criticism from You about our Dapp.

Specify the question for a German please - you want my view on short-form content in general?

Well, there is a place of course, the issue on Hive given the blogging history of early Steem days that many still appreciate longer content but I am fan of diverse options. I have to re-try @dbuzz again but give me a bit time.

very good, you have my vote. I see the problem too. For a Hive token Holder, there is no benefit to vote for this proposal.

If it would connect to the hive token, the whole story would be different.

So the community pays for the Hive engine government token holders benefit.

Should hive be powered up to be eligible for the airdrop?

Currently the plan is to airdrop on all Hive, liquid and powered-up.

Thanks for the answer.

Pretty interesting. I am looking forward to that.

Thank you @blocktrades! Can't wait for this update.

We are also looking at presenting Our 2nd layer open-source NFT/token standard anyone can use in the next few weeks.

I think a few different teams are working on things. Not sure if this proposal needs to be funded when other teams are working on a similar projects without funding.

Don't you guys already collect revenue via the deposit and withdrawal fees? Why is the community paying for something that you will benefit from monetarily? Also, $100k? What happened to building a stake on here and then working to build things that create value for that stake? If what you create adds value it will more than pay for itself with the increased in coin price and market cap. This is currently akin to a startup project and all these large fundings/expenditures are what is killing the price of the coin.

cuz they're greedy and everyone is trying to milk the proposal system weakness and accountability while they can. And, because @aggroed is popular, why not try and make a free 100k HBD? Let's be honest

I know that cost might be inflated too much, but issue is where is the "counter bid proposal"?
My trust on DAO funding is broken when $30K (may be $36K) is pocketed by someone in name of exchange listings.

True that.

My understanding is that this proposal would fund development of the open source backend. But it would be good to confirm where the "BTC market" feature would be implemented.

If this is the case, then the funding does help them if it allows their proprietary frontend and deposit services to collect more fees. But it would allow others to also provide these services, which will happen if the market is big enough as long as the critical infrastructure is openly licensed and reusable.

I am persuaded by the argument that more use of the DEX is good for the Hive price since users will hold Hive to participate in the markets.

@aggroed any thoughts?

Road to decentralization.
Voted.

I believe it's a lot of money thrown into a niche project, but...I voted for it because stagnation is a problem. Even if some projects aren't ideal there's hope it will bring more both people and funds into the whole ecosystem. Even if the project won't succeed we might have some level of success - look at Leofinance.

full support

Nice 👍. Full support from our team.

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It's good and I would love to see a SMTs proposal as well.

Posted using Dapplr

You get my 100% upvote. Hive-Engine is the best thing on Hive these days. Great work.m

you have no concerns about there is already a government token on hive engine and it has nothing to do with Hive?

Which token is that ?

worker bee or something like that

• Token creation will be free?
• Prices are bit overkill, imho.
  • Smart Contract Development - 40,000 HBD, these are specific contracts decided by your team?
  • Performance Enhancements - 20,000 HBD, also bit over priced, I think, same price as writing p2p layer which is mostly done from one of the videos you mentioned, no?!

You mentioned you're developing a P2P system, but didn't explain what that is to all us non-techies. Can you elaborate?

Also will vote because I want all that modular stuff with no code. You had me at modular stuff with no code.

I agree and support it. But where is the proposal?

OK, find it. 😎

I'll back this, hive-engine is pretty important.

> Hive-Engine is an opensource

Looks like the repositories are at https://github.com/hive-engine. It looks like https://github.com/hive-engine/hive-engine-dex is the main backend repo, and it is released under the permissive open source MIT license.

> The backend is an opensource community project hosted on github. The front-end, hive-engine.com as well as tribaldex.com are part of a private business.

Are there any other frontends besides hive-engine.com that allow users to interact with Hive Engine? I am interested in gauging whether Hive Engine would survive where the private business to cease.

Sure, Leodex is an example.

Did not know about https://leodex.io/market/DEC. It's a nice interface, and shows how DEC has been killing it lately with the Splinterlands land sale coming up:

[IMAGE: https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/dhimmel/c2YtsPt3-image.png]

Anyways helpful to know that the open source backend is at the point where other frontends can and have been built on it.

Will effort on this extend time taken for rollout of splinterlands stuff?

Make a good product and charge fees like every other exchange. What exchange was funded by a community that can't take part in the rewards. If the fees of the exchange were used to burn hive, maybe but that's not the case. Seems more like double dipping bro

$100,000 to develop what essentially boils down to a suite of plugins to convert ERC-20 transaction data into JSON is a pretty decent ask. As a developer myself totally understand the dev team has got to eat but from a technical standpoint I'm hesitant to even begin to entertain the idea that something of this nature, assuming the foundation of it isn't already available open sourced somewhere, wouldn't take a team of a few decently skilled individuals a few months and about a 1/5th of the budget you're asking here to complete. This isn't a shot at the HE team or your proposal, merely an observation from someone who has inhabited this ecosystem longer than most people have even had a concept of development being possible within the cryptocurrency space.

What strikes me the most troubling about this whole idea isn't the money ask being put fourth here but the entire idea behind developing something that directly or indirectly tries to build upon the coat-tails of another network we should be aiming to become an alternative to, not for lack of a better term be assimilated by via actions striving towards integration. Perhaps my vision issue on this is clouded by the disdain I harbour towards what I can only describe as "crypto for people who don't crypto".. Etherium should be something that anyone who truly embraces the spirit of crypto isn't wholeheardedly excited to get involved with. It isn't immutable, it's built to suck capital from it's users and ultimately failed as a viable cryptocurrency fundamentals wise with the DAO. As a network Etherium is nothing which can be considered anything remotely resembling satoshis original vision for crypto currency.

With all that being said though, I will support your proposal even if I don't agree with the fundamentals of what you're trying to achieve.. The Hive-Engine.com platform is a cornerstone of what made steem and is making HIVE somewhat of an interesting environment to work and develop in and frankly without it my own development en-devours would be far less amusing. Between it's ability to create value from ideas spawned by communities to simply being able to create shitcoins for lulz with a cost to the creator amounting to less than a pack of smokes the economic and entertainment value of what's been built with Hive-Engine.com is something that I personally cannot downplay.

I'll support Hive-Engine, but getting deep into bed with Etherium rather than perhaps focusing on your own unique offerings seems akin to chasing after a sinking ship. If the broken fundamentals and gas price gouging aren't enough to make a person leery on that shit I don't really know what would be.

As for your HE rewrite I wish you luck on the update. Going from a single threaded, blocking process architecture to a multi-threaded asynchronous architecture is no small feat and I'm interested to see what you guys come up with. The idea of codeless smart contracts is a somewhat tempting thought.. and I'm sure to the non-technicals out there the sort of buzzword they froth at the mouth upon hearing.. however in practice a system such as that will be somewhat underwhelming both in utility as well as ability to spawn innovation, likely resulting in the system being overlooked by serious players, unless said system itself was designed around allowing developers to submit and modify their own code to be able to create unique instances of headless applications.

If done right a properly resource managed fully functional smart side chain could be an absolute game changer for all involved.. However bringing something like this to market that is both capable enough to get serious developers involved but at the same time simple enough for the average internet serf to be able to comprehend and use is going to be an extremely delicate balancing act.

As for making a functional BTC trading pair exchange given what you've already built it's simply a matter of changing a few variables and setting up some RPC calls differently to make HE BTC compliant. In all honesty besides the legal loopholes you'd need to cover given your pre-existing code base this could be knocked out in an afternoon over some beer.

The real question I find myself asking here at the end of writing all this is.. how is it possible after being quite well established in this ecosystem for what most would consider a decent length of time and having built number of seemingly profitable applications on top of HIVE that you've not been able to self fund your in house development with profits earned to avoid this whole asking for what is essentially a float to keep development moving forward? Now please don't mistake the tone of that question as being arrogant nor provocative as some would like to paint it as. Honestly curious as to what percentage of income from established services gets put back into R&D and what percentage in the future would need to be put back into development in order to avoid what is essentially crowd sourcing seed money for a privately held company.

Now if people get triggered by this post so be it however I certainly didn't come here to fucking troll nor am I here to piss anyone off or kiss anyone's ass. I'm merely expressing my point of view and potential concerns from the perspective of a developer who builds applications without the financial backing of established income sources or crowd sourced seed money for the most part. No part of this is meant to come off as salt or piss, but rather an objective look at what has been observed over a lengthy period of time within the ecosystem.

Can I get a link to the proposal to vote the thing here shortly or is it still being drafted?

Anyways, hope ya'll get your vision built even if it does involve fundamentally stunted network integration. Ya'll got's my support simply on the basis of having created Hive-Engine which regardless of some less than amiable ramblings from folks within the HIVE horde is a pretty friggin' decent service.

Keep on keeping on. Any development outfit that is trying to build things to give HIVE more utility even if in my opinions is not a great direction is still an ally to the community. /rant

I agree that Hive-Engine IS absolutely amazing but if this proposal is turned down, is there not a possibility that they might come up with another more closely aligned with your own vision for Hive? I'm confused.

Possibility. Although what I personally would be doing is taking existing graphene based chains that feature smart contract capability and gutting it to suit our own purposes.

Like reverse engeneering? So why vote for it tho?

Because as a small community of developers we don't have to see exactly eye to eye in order to support eachother.

Yes, I can see that you are very supportive, I love to see that, it's just that in my intuitive grasp of the current tokenomics, I won't take any risks. Proposals need to be spot on. If things were better though I would vote for it out of trusting Hive-Engine.

I'm an outspoken type. I calls it likes I sees it and will be the first one to raise an unpopular viewpoint or give praise where it's deserved but lacking.

End of the day we're all just trying to make a living by building ontop of the same platform. One can view other development outfits as competition if they wish or as different cogs of the same machine. All depends on how you wish to view the world really.

The future sure is unpredictable.

I agree that H-E most certainly makes Hive an enjoyable experience for me. Good point!

Agreed! Our team is working on something similar and we are not asking for $1 let alone $100,000

Big tech companies tend to re-invest something upwards of 80% of their profits back into R&D in order to maintain a competitive advantage. You certainly don't hear of giants like Samsung, AMD and Intel looking for seed capital to fund their next advancement in technology, they learned long ago to put their profits back into themselves in order to grow in size and capability as time goes on.

If you build something successful and manage it all correctly it should easily cover it's own development costs for future iterations of it. For small time devs like you or I we work without a decent amount of income but do it because we see the capability to build something that will produce capital.

can't wait for the release!

> The real question I find myself asking here at the end of writing all this is.. how is it possible after being quite well established in this ecosystem for what most would consider a decent length of time and having built number of seemingly profitable applications on top of HIVE that you've not been able to self fund your in house development with profits earned to avoid this whole asking for what is essentially a float to keep development moving forward?

Very interesting question, I see it the same way, therefore my reserves.

Wasn't trying to be a dink or anything expressing this.. Honestly quite confused why the team isn't reinvesting enough into future R&D to keep themselves fed and pay the bills.

Charge more money and Airdrop government token to Hive holders and payout the current Government token holders from Hive engine, or even use the hive token as a master token for it.

Then it would be fair ( and also one more reason to power up large amounts of hive).

I see if we have to money tokens, the native token hive becomes worthless ( or more worthless).

There is no reason to stake 1 million hive.

btw founding a centralized government Token model (with DAO cash) from Hive engine is not what I like to see. Don't get me wrong, I like Hive engine in general.

I like the idea, but not sure why community funds need to pay for this? Especially since you guys will profit monetarily if it succeeds.

• P2P development and testing - 20,000 HBD
• Smart Contract Development - 40,000 HBD
• Performance Enhancements - 20,000 HBD
• Ethereum Bridge - 10,000 HBD
• BTC market - 10,000 HBD

This is a very large pill to swallow. Why not prioritize them and create separate proposals and milestones?

Now the uncomfortable part, because I like what you do for the ecosystem, but I have been less than impressed with how we've utilized community funds thus far.
My guess is that you will be able to derive transaction fees or find other ways to monetize this effort on the back end (not a dig, but you seem very apt at monetization), so this seems almost like a business bootstrap. So if the community is making what amounts to a business investment, what is the community ROI? Correct me if I'm wrong, but with all of these mechanisms in place, you stand to take in much much more than 100k in transaction fees.

In a previous post @aggroed said that the landsale in splinterlands or farmfarm (something sale) was going to pay for developing hive engine into what is proposed here.

Other previous posts from @theycallmedan suggest (or imply) that he was behind the push for H-E to become SMTs so naturally one would think there was a funding/partnership in effect there. To now put it through as a proposal for $100000 when Hive is bleeding is shady.

Savage actually.

[IMAGE: https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/teknow/GzCWux1O-Great20White20Shark20and20Seal.jpg]

That's how I've seen Hive/Steemit really. Sharks know how to feed well. The community is at their peril. When the reality is: community is the real value. Without community any dapp here is simply vaporware. Maybe communities/tribes should start putting in proposals to get paid upfront also.

[IMAGE: https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/teknow/bMRmuYIC-baby20seal.jpg]

On a somewhat related note, LEOFinance really is the diamond in the rough here on Hive and in the recent video uploaded by them they make a related point. That it's a symbiotic system where development and community engagement are equally crucial forces driving growth. Devs, Users and Investors are all pushing. Committed to rewarding those contributing with content and engagement. They know that the future is not guaranteed but by maintaining focus and strong belief in what they're a part of, the vision is achievable.

Like many are realising, Hive has a long (maybe shaky) road ahead but there's a broken system here if Devs demand upfront payment yet community only gets to hold on to hope.. hope that the token price will ever look good enough to comfort them with the thought that they're committed to the right chain and that their time spent here gains appreciation.

[IMAGE: https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/teknow/2XaxPM7I-split_happy_seal_.jpg]

I would support it if hive-engine becomes a "almost" fee-less p2p second layer smart contract solution for its users. 2 layer network should be run by 2nd layer producers, which should be incentiviced by some kind of 2 layer token inflation and -may be - transaction fees for token / smart contract creation. This fee's should not be part of the business model of a private company.

This was one of the easiest proposals to vote for. I know what HIVE-Engine has done so far and I realize the potential in getting these things out as fast as possible. I'm only a Dolphin but I'm in full support for these features.

https://twitter.com/Bhattg18/status/1324043677006618624

you have our vote)

You have my vote for all that you do on behalf of #hive and to help the project.

I would like to see tribes 2.0 on the horizon with something closer to the leofinance set up with a lot more customization options, more sign-up options and in built ad revenue. Tribes that can become profitable and easy to set up different options.
I feel that it would add a lot to the hive eco system with 100 of these sites where you can bring in more users to the community as well as generate revenue to buy hive from the markets. SMT's lite sort of.

Quick and easy to set up communities that can be profitable to run and have a backing token.

I have some reserves about if this proposal should be funded by the DAO but being a user of HIVE ENGINE and a believer of the benefits that has I have voted supporting this.

Mainly because its open source but also because I see it as an opportunity for more decentralization.