Thank's for this great information. Now we just need to know when the fork is happening and what else they will do with the remaining 99% of Hive which is being held in the Dao. Saving it for the future when the price is rapidly decreasing isn't the best solution. Perhaps a controlled burn is on the table?

They also said a vote would be required for any future airdops but are now changing that to a yes these people are being airdropped because of "mistakes." Hive is not decentralized, this is a centralized mistake and decision.

Put it to a vote!

Well those accounts were really added on the blacklist in error. They should've never been there in the first place. I think it's very good that they are now getting their funds.
What happens with those funds is completely up to the community and the SPS system. iirc there was a proposal which burned funds. Of course that is on the table.

The entire black list should have never been there. It's hard to admit ones mistake and do the right thing which is airdropping all non-steemit accounts. It just makes the arbitrary rules to receive airdrop more ridiculous.

As much as I dislike proxy.token and their supporters for holding the sockpuppets in place, they only helped endure continuing harm and weren't the cause.

Only the accounts that got us into this mess (those 3 exchanges and steemit ones) should be punished, but two of the exchanges managed to lie and cheat their ways out of any real responsibility for their deliberate and harmful act.

Lets have a vote to see if huobi and binance get airdrops....oh wait it seems another dodgy centralized decision was made.

I was always under the impression that the community agreed to the first soft-fork to just freeze the ninja mined stakes. and one which I did support.

But now there are too many accounts which seem to have been affected. If there was a tech side to it, I would not dare to intervene as I am not a tech guy. But overall it makes me uneasy to carry on with a vindictive approach when we have already forked away and moved on. And it makes me worried for the future.

For me, just freezing out the ninja mined and stinc held stakes would have been enough, and I would have carried on hiving away.

> I was always under the impression that the community agreed to the first soft-fork to just freeze the ninja mined stakes. and one which I did support.

Yes, me too. But we decided to get a little revenge on some whose actions clearly demonstrated they support centralization after.

> But overall it makes me uneasy to carry on with a vindictive approach when we have already forked away and moved on. And it makes me worried for the future.

Me too. The punishment doesn't fit the crime and too many have escaped justice. Not to mention that in civil society, the idea is reform and not punishment.

Delaying their airdrops by 3~4 months and making them apologize and agree to participate kindly would have been enough.

Thebreal issue is the vulnerability of the system. Hate the game not the players.

>making them apologize and agree to participate kindly

You really think they'd stand by their word? They've already shown they have no honour and their promises are useless

The point is to get it on record. If people feel strongs need to be attached that's fine.

Their promises to not freeze funds are on record too, and guess where those promises went

> punished

Punished? Nobody was being punished.

Accounts were either actively participating in strengthening a Sybil attack, or they weren't. There's no middle ground there. It's yes or no. True or false. The code didn't care about politics, beliefs, nationalities. If you're to fork a chain to escape a sybil attack/hostile takeover, you cannot include the sybil attack/hostile takeover in the new chain because that would make the new chain pointless.

Since there has always been an appeal process on the table, all excluded accounts were handled fairly and professionally.

If they were to do what you're suggesting, and begin handpicking accounts based on beliefs, then there's a problem.

The hive blockchain is SAFU, so this is punishment.

My main issue is who was punished and who escaped. The dials and levels were twisted and pulled to make a very specific subset of individuals who would be caught in the net. By the time the fork had been announced the damage had been done. Actually, the most damage was done by the people who initially voted for the puppet witnesses, not the idiots who kept up the stalemate.

The exchanges, Binance and Huobi,were let off the hook due to the methods decided to punish enemies of decentralization. This is because many innocent victims would be punished in the crossfire.

This tells me it is about punishment and not about protecting the blockchain. Further, I think some people are sucking up to CZ binance as we speak to get Hive listed there. Hypocrisy?

Let's just sweep this under the rug and give them an airdrop. What's the risk? In theory,they can just buy it back and attack up again.

Why are you talking about politics? That exclusion list was never about politics. You can have your beliefs, but it's not about beliefs either. There's a post above you talking about an error in the code. Some of those people felt 'punished' and thought it was because about 'beliefs', and they were wrong, and I bet some will still continue to feel like they were being punished due to beliefs, even when confronted with the facts. And a lot of that has to do with how some of you folks spin it and turn it into politics and beliefs.

There would have never been an error if the exclusion list was left to the steemit accounts originally blocked during softfork 22.2.

More accounts just had to be added. Why were those with less than 1000sp safe? Why was it maximun 2 fake witnesses? Isn't 17 required. Face it a lot of these decisions were not technical. So what does that make them? Centrally decided by people who created Hive is my best guess.

From a technical standpoint, none of these accounts needed their Hive removed, as just removing Steemit stake would have shifted the balance more than enough to get 17 proper witnesses back and make it expensive to launch another attack.

Even if technicaly difficulties remained, it could have just been held back for a few months until we could fix things.

Someone carefully selected the additional targets and made the punishment permanent for reasons that aren't related to the technical workings of the blockchain. To say there were no political elements or beliefs involved is at least equally as deceptive as saying it was mostly bssed on that.

Even with the criteria explained within the post linked within the post above, you'll still continue on with your beliefs and politics? I find that behavior to be quite peculiar.

What could be more damaging? The facts? Or an opinion that denies facts?

To be clear I'm happy they are recieving their airdrop because of a computer code error. I just think it was a mistake to deny them and the other non-hive accounts an airdrop in the first place.

How does this opinion deny the facts?

The exclusion list was never meant to be interpreted as a final decision. Want to know how I know?

The included appeal process.

I wonder if there would have been hiccups in the code if accounts were voting for accounts in a position that no longer exists. Those sockpuppet accounts. Why include those and the voters if you're removing that hostile takeover element?

Once the dust settles, those voters can then appeal for the airdrop. Many deserve it and would receive it. Especially when someone like you votes for that decision, since it's what you want.

There's no mistake. Was it messy? Sure. I'll say it was handled poorly, but mostly due to a lack of proper communication. Far too many impatient people. Far too many twisted narratives. It made it damn near impossible to actually explain this all without the words sounding like they're coming form the devil. Even now as I try to explain to you, I've been having trouble getting through because of the wall of beliefs you've placed between us.

> The exclusion list was never meant to be interpreted as a final decision. Want to know how I know?
The included appeal process.

Fair enough. It isn't perfect (which is actually what I want to help with) and I do wish they had announced a timeline of...say 13 weeks. However infairness full details of the appeal haven't been made public left, which is also why I want some of my opinions considered or heard.

You could be right about hiccups in the code, and that would help explain a lot amd support your argument that it isn't about punishment. If anything, maybe it was easier and not worth the risk in finding out.

I'm glad no one is disagreeing with the right to appeal. There are a few concerns - does their future stake count towards yes. Also is there a NO side to beat so we can record positions? I'm hoping there is at east a no side and if it is razor thin, we consider their forfieted influence.

I do agree it is messy and complicated. The decision was made in haste amd for good reason. Now is a chance to tryband clear up confusion amd misunderstandings. I'm not here to make factual events confusing. I'm here to make people question if no airdrop is justified (punishment fits the crime). If the bloclchain is still under threat, yeah don't do it, but I think we are safe now.

> full details of the appeal haven't been made public ~~left~~, which is also why I want some of my opinions considered or heard.

That one cracks me up. LOL!

Wait for the dang facts! Then form opinions. Jeez you guys... What good is hearsay and gossip leading to conspiracy theory? Twisted narratives combined with the 'guessing game' is what got us all in this mess to begin with! Silly humans. When will you learn...

Have a good day, dude.

Lol it does sound ridiculous. My meaning is more to help influence and design of the appeal not to speculate.

I remember you saying too much is discussed off chain and on discord. I imagine that is where much of the design is taking place.

I'm glad we are having discussion here even if it is enduring, visible and harder for me to eat my words.

>Accounts were either actively participating in strengthening a Sybil attack, or they weren't.

Or they had a stake of <1000 SP. That is where a bit of arbitrariness comes into play. That number is without any justification, and a more or less round number, which is why it was chosen. I think that this threshold shouldn't have existed, so it really was a True/False for supporting the attack with your stake.

Strengthening, not supporting. Remove the beliefs and politics since that did not play a role.

All witness votes were still in place when the chain was forked. Have a look at the Hive witness list. Those sock puppet accounts are still there. They needed to force those sock puppet accounts far down the list, right? So how would you do that? Am I missing something or is removing the stake backing those sockpuppet witness accounts the only way?

I criticized the 1000 SP threshold. I suppose there are many small accounts which voted for > 1 Sun puppets, which are not on the blacklist because they only have a small amount of Steem Power. This arbitrary threshold causes those attackers, who definitely strengthened the attack, since the do have stake, just not that much, to not end up on the blacklist. What I want to say, is that I would prefer to have either none of the non-stinc accounts on the blacklist, or all of them (that voted the Sun puppets of course)

So there's a exclusion list. A hostile takeover that needed to be weakened. It didn't need to be weakened all the way. And who wants to deal with an even longer exclusion list? This short list has already caused a stir.

I've been around for nearly four years. The narrative would have been spun into "Oh my god! Look what they did to the little guy! They hurt the little guy! Look how mean they are!" And that would have all been bullshit, but people have a fancy way of believing bullshit if it suits their twisted narrative. I've already seen some petty arguments and a lot of common sense thrown out the door by people who were on the list because of an error. Imagine all those folks whining about ten bucks.

But why did the 1000 SP threshold get setup and not a 10000 or even 100000 SP threshold. All of those would've weakened the attack more than sufficiently.
>Remove the beliefs and politics since that did not play a role.

That also includes the belief that small stake is completely unimportant. This threshold is a political thing that should've not existed.
Either attack-supporting stake is removed, or it isn't. What we have now, is a half-solution, caused by political thinking, and beliefs.

> That also includes the belief that small stake is completely unimportant.

Nobody said that. What you're doing is called SPIN. I'm stepping out of this conversation now because I know it won't lead anywhere due to the fact you're attempting to twist things out of shape by placing words in mouths and thoughts in minds that aren't yours.

I wish you all the best. Have a nice day.

Yeah that was rather unfortunate wording - what I wanted to say is that this includes the belief that small stake does not contribute enough to the attack in order to be relevant. Also, not putting the small accounts on the blacklist, because they would be whining around is 100% political.
Have a nice day too.

Ugh...

> Also, not putting the small accounts on the blacklist, because they would be whining around is 100% political.

The code selecting those little accounts wouldn't be the one making it political, it would be all those haters out there who like to twist things out of shape and make all these folks on Hive appear to be DEMONS. That's who would be making it about politics. That's who would be spinning it like that. USING the little guy, acting like saviors, to make the Hivers look bad. I'm not saying that's why they weren't added to the list. I'm saying if they were, those sadistic son of a bitches would have used it as ammo when they feel like making Hive look bad.

Almost like what it appears you're doing, but worse.

Quit the spin. It's annoying. LOL! Seriously though. I gotta run. Have a good day.

"Punishing" Huobi and Binance by removing their funds only screws over people who were already screwed over by Huobi and Binance

It also rewards the decision makers at Binance who have finds there.

This is a lazy way of thinking.

Anyway may I ask why you are downvoting my comments? You do realize when the value falls below 0 they disappear from Hive front ends.

Do you think downvoting me because you disagree with my opinion is acceptable behavior?

I'm sorry my small downvote amount is intimidating, I have downvoted myself a few times to make you feel better.

Thank you. I feel better already.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that comments disappear, they are only collapsed

I downvote comments that I don't believe are accurate, it's my stake to do what I want with, and it helps move comments down lower.

I do not intent to spread inaccurate informations. Mostly this is my opinion which is subjective. Please point out the inaccurate content so I may better understand what part you are confused about.

These people deserve their Hive and reasonable compensations for their inflation losses and pains and sufferings.

But yeah, it's a centralized solution to an error made by a centralized decision. Just another example of the risks and dangers associated with centralized decision making.

Truthfully, they define decentralization to suit their given narrative at the time. Today it means no Justin Sun or Steemit, which is reasonable. Tomorrow, who knows? Perhaps a reward is due?

The power to move around hive in the dao without a vote in this case seems just. They assure us it won't happen again, just like last time. Just like Justin assured us.

Let's pray it won't happen again amd again and again. I have my doubts.

There will be votes btw for the remaining airdrops.

Votes are like saying no. The people who didn't get an airdrop can't even vote. Fixing the mistakes only cause more problems and raise additional concerns.

DAO will be syphoned by the whales. Putting the ninja-mine stake in it, just changed the owner of it.

Even if the 99% poorest Hive members voted for a proposal, it would be far from reaching 'funding' status.

awww not enough SP to qualify :(

Not enough SP to qualify for what?

for the airdrop

- voting for 2 or more of the sockpuppet Steem witness accounts, or proxied to someone voting 2 or more sockpuppet accounts
- who did not unvote or unproxy before the Hive hardfork announcement
- who had over 1000 SP

You already got that airdrop - you have 220 Hive Power in your wallet. These criteria you listed are for those who are excluded in the airdrop. There were some accounts which didn't meet those criteria but were excluded anyways. Those accounts will soon get their airdrop.

ah sorry my brain must have farted

No worries ^^
Glad I could help resolve this ;)

I think calling it an airdrop is what is causing this type of confusion. It wasn't really an "airdrop"

True. It wasn't an airdrop, and calling it that is confusing and upsetting a lot of people. I wish we would use proper terms for things.

flugschwein dropping tokens, nice

Some of those accounts attacked the chain in other ways.
Now I find out they are getting their stake, and it will likely continue being cancerous to the rest of us.
Smdh.

My question now is, when does all that nonvoting whale stake come out of its closet and tell us Ned sold all that to JS, too?
Or worse, he didn't sell it and will now use it to haunt us until he does.

Some of the accounts that are not on black blacklist "attacked" the chain in other ways as well.
The blacklist has very clear rules for which accounts end up on there. The script creating the first list, did not completely follow these rules. That's why those accounts will get removed from the list. Had they stayed on there, that would've been completely unjustified.

It wouldn't matter, if folks used their down votes.
Some people have all the luck.

Same question as the guy above, I wonder if those accounts were really blacklisted by mistake or because they expressed support for Sun's actions.

They were absolutely blacklisted by mistake. The script determining the blacklist did not account for an edge case, and that's why these accounts ended up on the list.

Well, glad to see the mistakes being amended

So we have excluded these accounts by mistake, great. But how do you know that they are really not Sun's puppet?

Interesting question. But I could ask the same of any account. I don't think an expanded witch hunt is what anyone wants.

That's true any account can be a puppet, but for someone bitching on the old chain just because they are left out should not be entitled.

Most of them are remaining silent in this debate, because no matter what they say, their cause will be better helped by their continued silence.

How come you suspect they are? Let's take double-u as an example: he has been a part of the German community for many years, and hosted a place for chit-chatting on the chain every week (in German). When the blacklist was published he was very shocked to be on there. Since then, a few bigger German accounts delegated Hive to his accounts out of solidarity.
Would you really believe him to be a Sun puppet.
Also, there were very clearly defined rules. I believe that the blacklist should go by exactly these rules.

I don't like that things can be tweaked manually behind the scenes. In this case, it seems to be being done for legitimate reasons, but just the fact that it can happen bothers me. It means it could be (and will be) used inappropriately before long.

For the Hive/Steem Hardfork this was more or less required in order to not let Justin Sun try to prevent it. Everything needed to happen very quickly.
This time, things don't really happen behind the scenes. The unblacklisting of those accounts has been announced, it will probably take weeks for the hardfork to go live, and if you don't want to support that, vote witnesses that represent your opinion.

https://i.imgur.com/NCm5oj4.png

Generated after scraping steemitboard rankings website (thanks @arcange)

What about steem?
And is @steem.dao included there? Since that account technically has 83 Million Hive in its wallet now.

This is for Hive Power, @steem.dao has 0 HP.

Oh right, missed that.
I guess then it would be even worse on steem, since the steemit stake is in that pie chart over there.

Hi @flugschwein ,
Wow! You really put a lot of work into this post.
These are very important facts and figures.
Thank you so much for that!
I am always amazed at your detailed knowledge!
I would not achieve this in two lives ;-)
Stay healthy!

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